Interior Single Light Setup - Nice results!

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sinesium
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do not hesitate
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SandroS
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sinesium wrote:IBL produces too much noise and gives strong background reflection from IBL ( i.e. grass ). It's not good
i agree that IBL produces more noise than - for example - emitters at the windows. i think the only thing that could help here are SKy Portals, but i have no idea if they are even on the radar.

regarding the reflection, i've never had this problem. do you have a ground plane in your scene?
sinesium wrote:Solution that has it all is a solid value of the Sun multiplier.
( don't have to use light-portals/hidden emitters at windows )

It doesn't matter to be physically corrected. It's all about the mood, feelings and natural look for an observer. That's all. ArchViz is an art not a laboratory.
by increasing the size of the sun like this you are effectively simulating clouds in front of the sun. these would partially obscure the sun but the rays would be scattered, resulting in a 'larger' but less powerful sun.

i've used the size parameter before and agree that it is a nice additional tool to have.

however a couple of things to look out for (looking at the settings you posted):

you have Clamp turned on and the value is set to 0.7

there's nothing wrong with clamping per se' if you are sure that the image you save out of Thea is pretty much your final image and you are happy with the exposure.

a value of 1 means that no value in the rendered image will have an RGB value greater than 255,255,255 - in other words, you have rendered a low dynamic range image, and you will not be able to adjust exposure correctly as you can with a 32 bit image for example. however the benefit is that you will not get any jaggies in the AA, as the clamped value means that AA is easier to resolve and fireflies (if a problem) should also be visibly reduced.

however a value of 0.7 means that no value in the image will be greater than approx RGB 180,180,180. you can compensate for this by increasing exposure in Thea, but overall you will reduce dynamic range, so i don't think there's a scenario where reducing the clamp value to less than 1 is useful :?:

a value greater than 1 will gradually increase dynamic range and of course turning it off will lead to a full float 32 image which will give you the most freedom in post processing.

you also have AO enabled, though the value is very low. if the ultimate goal here is the best image quality vs render time image, and physical correctness is not an issue, then why not reduce Diffuse Depth to zero (leaving only direct light) and increase AO intensity?

would be interesting to see the result this gives and it should be considerably faster (don't forget to set Clamp to 1 though)
sinesium
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If IBL is used the Clamp Level should be set to reduce fireflies ( unfortunately even 0.7 level does not reduce them all ).

As you see with this "Muliplier trick" and even without SuperSampling there are no fireflies at all at clamp level 0.7 both in AO & MC.

AO enabled gives walls less noise and better mood of rendered image.
AO reduces render time.
Low level of AO prevents "lightning walls". If AO level is high ( near to 1 ) and size is small
walls shading appears completely unnaturally.
Is best to set AO when all light sources are off then you can see how bright are all scene elements.

I will check how does it look in AO / SSoff / CL=1 / 4096 spp.
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PrastoAO_vs_PrestoMC.jpg
sinesium
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Test render is done.
Image parameters: AO / SS=off / 4096 spp
First has CL=OFF, Second has CL=0.7
Difference is huge.

ClampLevel=off overpowering reflections ( image is overburned in some places ) and amount of noise is too high.
So it is better to use it.

As we see with Muliplier trick=1000 fireflies are very rare even SS=off ( and when CL=off ).

One word about Diffuse Depth. As I understand ( I hope not wrong ) DD determines number of ray bounces form surfaces and changes its freq ( color ) after impact depending of material settings. If there will be no DD then surfaces couldn't influence each other when the distance among them is above AO radius.
AO is just a "helper" that gives less noise adding some GI brightness.
I think AO cannot replace DD even in this light trick.
But this is a question for creator and main programmer - Gannis.
I just don't exactly know. I am not specialist on that matter.
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saurus
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sinesium wrote:It doesn't matter to be physically corrected. It's all about the mood, feelings and natural look for an observer. That's all. ArchViz is an art not a laboratory.
I disagree. For me, the most important value I get from Thea is to see how the space will actually look like when built (or what photography of it would look like). IMO this is the point of realistic type of render, and the most important part of it, as it have the real value in practice. It is then a real design tool. Of course, there is the other type of ArchViz, which is more about showing the mood itc, but it's more like a sketch, showing the concept, not even trying to pretend to be realistic. These are two honest principals. What you are calling "art" is art of deception. It could look great, but what's the point of producing great 2D pictures which leads to not so great space? ArchiViz is not Fantasy illustration.
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SandroS
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sinesium wrote:Test render is done.
Image parameters: AO / SS=off / 4096 spp
First has CL=OFF, Second has CL=0.7
Difference is huge.

ClampLevel=off overpowering reflections ( image is overburned in some places ) and amount of noise is too high.
So it is better to use it.
i was merely saying that clamping to a level below 1 is simply reducing the dynamic range more than necessary and if you look again i suggested using a clamp level of 1 and comparing that with your 0.7.

in any case i rarely use Clamp and i don't normally have such difficult noise issues so i'm just suggesting that there may be an underlying issue with your materials or lighting that is causing the excessive noise in the first place.
sinesium wrote:ClampLevel=off overpowering reflections ( image is overburned in some places ) and amount of noise is too high.
So it is better to use it.
better to use it for you in your test scene but this is definitely not a general way to go about rendering interiors in Thea.

this is clearly working for you and that's good but to say that you should always clamp your images is misinforming as this is not the case.
sinesium wrote:One word about Diffuse Depth. As I understand ( I hope not wrong ) DD determines number of ray bounces form surfaces and changes its freq ( color ) after impact depending of material settings. If there will be no DD then surfaces couldn't influence each other when the distance among them is above AO radius.
AO is just a "helper" that gives less noise adding some GI brightness.
I think AO cannot replace DD even in this light trick.
that is correct, and for sure AO is never going to give as natural a result as proper light bounces.

this thread is mainly about hacks so i was pointing out that the fastest hack is to not have bounced GI and use AO instead. of course the result will be different and pretty fake but if you need a decent looking image fast and you don't care for physical accuracy then that's the way to get it. you could also try with 1 or max 2 bounces and the result shouldn't be too far off the 16 bounces you are using.
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JQL
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Saurus wrote: IMO this is the point of realistic type of render, and the most important part of it, as it have the real value in practice. It is then a real design tool.
As Saurus, the real benefit for me of having a physically accurate render is that you can create physically accurate materials and apply them to test spaces at a physical scale and with a physical sun, so you can design them as accuratelly as possible.

That tells us the direction we are taking on our design is correct or not and I use Thea's IR 90% of the time and for those 90% I save only a couple of images for helping me present some ideas.

I'm very happy that you can tweak Thea to get you what I need but why not search for a more natural way of achieving the same thing? Don't you think it will be more productive in the long run?

I believe your excessive burning and reflections could be caused by material setup and not sun setup.
SandroS wrote:in any case i rarely use Clamp and i don't normally have such difficult noise issues so i'm just suggesting that there may be an underlying issue with your materials or lighting that is causing the excessive noise in the first place.
Sandro has a lot of examples of great final renders, that are based on thea physical system, that are probably worth investigating.

I'd personally love that you pushed is knowledge a bit further so we can also learn :D
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sinesium
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I respect that some of you are going to achieve completely physically corrected render
( as Thea can give ). But my goal at Interiors is ... different. :)

Exteriors - this is a different story.
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CLoff_vs_CLon.jpg
sinesium
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I have rendered some images ( with some artificial lights ).
Most of the noise is caused by light coming form cone lamps when it runs through material that simulates frosted glass.
However it looks nice, softly like... yes - V-RAY STYLEd :)... I am mad about it.


ClampLevel=1 as SandroS has recomended... thanks :)

I will send this scene illuminated only by the SUN-mul1000. It's is now on rendering.
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Frederik
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I like it...! :thumbup:
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